By now you have probably heard and seen Leslie Rohde’s two videos from StomperNet’s Going Natural series: Advanced SEO: LSI is Lame and A Top Ranking Hiding in Your Site?
The first video bothered me because Leslie didn’t use the suggested title of: “You can’t spell Bull S**t Without LSI.” Humorous and true.
Now before you think this is a direct slam on Russell Wright of Theme Zoom and Bruce Clay, both of whom I consider personal friends, you are obviously looking for something that isn’t there. The only person Leslie seeks out to personally slam and humiliate is me, and I have the pictures to prove it.
Let’s face it, just the thought of LSI has always been sexy. And then the talk of the Google patents and things just sort of snow ball and we often lose sight of what really matters when it comes to ranking criteria. I remember from ‘04-’06 I was a big supporter of LSI and Michael Marshall’s tool, Theme Master. The tool would later be sold to a company and it was renamed OptiRanker, very close to Leslie Rohde’s OptiLink and OptiSpider.
Which was quite interesting.
So, why did I support something that really didn’t work? Because I was an idiot. Yes, an idiot. It happens. Let me explain.
When you test, it is vital that you have a control page and a test page … and after you are done testing, you remove what you did and it should return back as it was before. I was just blinded by “LSI” in that it worked so well that I never reverted back – I just kept moving forward. And then a new staff member suggested removing the LSI components to see exactly how much of effect it had on the rankings in Google. So we did and guess what?
The rankings didn’t move.
We then tore out LSI components from all the pages we could find that we used Marshall’s tool on and the same thing …. rankings didn’t move.
It was then when I realized that LSI was just a sexy subject but not part of the algorithm as we had thought.
So watch Leslie’s videos and StomperNet is reopening Stomping the Search Engines 2.0, which I was a part of for just a dollar. The one part which Leslie didn’t mention that I feel is vital is that you must check the cache date where you get your links. If you acquire a link and the page isn’t indexed by Google and NEVER gets indexed by Google, how much impact do you think it will have on your site? Right. None!
Back to Russell Wright and Bruce Clay. Both of their models are solid and I am still a member and an active user of ThemeZoom. It is a great research tool. I’ve talked with Bruce at length about his methodologies and what Leslie debunks in this video is NOT part of Bruce’s methods – at least from my perspective. Watch the videos, and you will gain great insight how you can improve your rankings in about three days. Seriously.
The main reason I started the SEO Revolution was out of frustration. Frustration at all of the lies and misconceptions that are posted in forums, given as advice in teleconferences, and even taught in live workshops. "So why didn't all of this work?" " Why wasn't my site successful?" " Why am I still stuck in a rut?" 
An excellent “holiday note” to read after getting your SEO book just a few days ago, Jerry.
See, you can’t spell Helsinky without that hot & bothered SEO abbreviation either
.
Lu
It’s funny about LSI. What Leslie says is quite true but what Leslie is talking about when he talks about LSI and the fact it doesn’t work isn’t the same thing webmasters mean when they talk about LSI. At least very few of the webmaster I know define LSI as in Leslie’s videos.
Webmasters believe that LSI is the same as using synonyms and themes. Not exactly what the meaning is in the first video. It’s my belief that this is what causes all the confusion about LSI. Now it’s also my opinion that synonyms work because they are a natural writing style. Not because they have anything to do with LSI.
If I was to write a page about being cold I’d also use the wores freezing, chilly, chill, frigid etc. because they all mean close to the same thing. If someone used ‘cold’ for every instance when they meant cold the page would read rather badly.
Does google use LSI according to Leslie’s definition? Nope, not a bit. Do they use LSI according to a webmaster definition? Yep, without a doubt. The only problem is, the webmaster definition is not true LSI.
Maybe an easier way to say it is, most webmasters think LSI is the list of related keywords Google will give in the serps.
Jerry,
I am a member of Theme Zoom as well and actually chatted with Russell about the video (Russell and I had a good chuckle discussing the video).
In reading your response to the video, I didn’t understand what you meant by “We then tore out LSI components from all the pages”.
Can you explain that please? What do you mean by “LSI” component?
Cheers,
Raymond Fong
P.S. Thanks to the video, we have a bunch of less-educated-about-SEO folks confused about LSI and themes… Yaye for us SEO consultants who now have to educate them and debunk Leslie’s implied messages.
Jerry,
I think you make some awesome points, but the marketing definitely took some passive aggressive jabs at ThemeZoom and Bruce Clay, because there is no way you can bring up this subject without thinking of Russell or Bruce.
They definitely knew that this misunderstanding was going to be created, meanwhile having a backup plan and explain things (much like you just stated), if things got too hot (but only if they had to).
There is no way they could have released the video in this way, without knowing the shit storm it would cause, and if you visited the comments on the video, people who don’t understand the subject matter are now talking crap about Russell and ThemeZoom (and they are approving those comments, while not allowing Charles Heflin’s comments and of others).
Technically, Leslie Rohde’s videos are awesome. It’s the marketing that lacks integrity, which I would expect from StomperNET or any well known company.
This is especially a problem, since many SEO consultants use ThemeZoom teachings and tools (including myself) to grow their businesses and this can make interactions with clients a little hairy if their dimwit tech guys catch wind of this, and take it the wrong way.
It’s irresponsible of them and I think they owe the industry an apology for these passive aggressive tactics.
-Ferny
Hi Lu,
Thanks for posting, and I hope you get a lot of mileage out of the guide.
Terry,
That was the main point of the video, to define LSI and what it actually is … as there seems to be 10,000 variations being spilled out everywhere.
However, the main basis of the theme of Leslie’s videos and the main target of his attack
Ferny,
I am unsure how you arrived at pinning a “passive aggressive” label on Leslie’s videos. Leslie isn’t attacking Russell, he is attacking bad information. Could you be looking for something that isn’t really there? Maybe a story in your head and this just fit the bill?
I don’t know what type of apology you expect from Andy, Leslie and StomperNet, but AJ has always been about his customers – like him or hate him – or something in-between. Wait a minute, this is AJ we are talking about – there is no in-between!
Seriously, take a break, have a beer, relax a bit and let the wall come down and then watch the second video again. Look at what Leslie nails down in terms of internal linking, not competing with yourself and avoiding incomplete links. It’s solid stuff when you boil it down.
Have a good holiday.
I’ve “skirted” around the subject of LSI on a number of occasions over the past year and could never really make sense of it regardless of the definition that was presented. The problem for me was always that I could reconcile the theory or definition with an application to the real world. As such I just ignored it.
I think Leslie’s video is amazing in that it explains the theory with a simple clarity and exposes it as a myth with the same simple clarity.
Where one poster seemed to assume this was an attack on someone is beyond me.
I can see both points of view.
Even if the LSI on site ranking theory is flawed, and I’m not convinced it is:
with proper site architecture, based on the synomc net siloing, “you will need less” inbounds…
I am very impressed with the themezoom service as a vertical market keyword theme research tool and site blueprinting tool.
Russel never claims that inbound linking is unnecessary, only that you may need fewer of them.
I checked out a couple of the sites shown as themezoom clients, from the videos, and was underimpressed re: their rankings on their silo theme phrases though; perhaps they did not pursue linking and social media, and only relied on siloing?
Can we use LSD on our sites and get high in the search engines?
These videos were meant to cause controversy – and they have done a good job. Controversy is a good marketing tool, and because of that factor alone StomerNet will be able to sell a few more of their $800 per month memberships.
However the thing is: experts can research and people can draw their own conclusions how Google works. But the fact is, very few people even at the heart of Google know for sure. Exact alogrithm it uses is vital to its very existence (just like Coke’s exact ingredients are to Coca Cola, Inc). It is protected well and only a handful of Google’s top technical brass with highest security clearance have access to it, and even that on a ‘need to’ basis.
It is hard to imagine how any one can come out with conclusions ‘for sure’ (no offence to Leslie or any one else).
Google remains a company led by intensely intelligent people with deep roots in academia. On that basis alone Leslie’s conclusion in second video that Google perhaps prefers peer reviewed ranking system makes sense. But his conclusion in the first video without any hard evidence does not make much sense.
But StomperNet’s video has created controversy and caused viral effect (and not the first time either). It is best to take them with a pinch of salt. Else SN would not be what it is today if they weren’t good at marketing.
Peter
Just more smoke and mirrors in the name of StomperNet’s “MArketing MAgic”!
If only they themselves could learn another direct marketing art called…wait for it…wait for it….ORDER FULFILLMENT!
They can sell it…they are just completely incompetent at packaging and shipping it!
Michael Rytter
@ Lance – Thanks for the post. Leslie’s video is very clear, which is amazing for him because half of the time I talk to Leslie he talks so far over my head!
@ Dan – I know what Russell has stated and I agree with that, but it wasn’t what Leslie was covering. The same can be said if you have listings in the Yahoo! directory, DMOZ and Best of the Web, you will need fewer inbounds to rank well. The real takeaway from Leslie’s video is the internal linking component.
@ Andrew – I am STILL laughing at your comment. Nice.
@ Peter – Good points. I will add to your point that “Link Bait” is most effective when there is controversy involved. SN has always pushed the envelope, but at the same time taught some killer tactics – for free. Andy’s Google Double-Listing, Dan Thies’ AdWords Triangulation Method, and now Leslie with the Internal Linking piece. And just wait for Dan’s video up next. I read the script last night. Good stuff and he goes over one of the techniques I have used for years to do my testing.
Michael – Agreed. SN has had issues with order fulfillment, but they did the right thing and when their provider failed, they closed the offer and fixed it and tested it. And then tested it again. AJ didn’t want a repeat and that’s why it is open again. The system they have won’t have the same problems.
So, you think Leslie’s stuff is “smoke and mirrors”? Try it out on your site and watch your rankings go up.
Michael, that is why they r launching again. They had serious fullfilment issues on the last one and I definately lost out as one of their affiliates.
I don’t think leslie is trying to pull any punches.
From day 1, Stompernet has been about viral marketing. Marketing in general has always been about exposure, good or bad, it doesn’t matter. “Stir the masses up into a feeding frenzy and they’ll create natural viral growth for you”. To me, these videos are meant to do just that. Leslie placed just enough ‘nuggets’ of real, verifiable info along with the mostly unsubstantiated claims to arouse the curiosity of the “people who know”, but the overall message is clear. Get the people talking. So far, I’d say they have succeeded. Whether the message is right or wrong is irrelevant to them. Isn’t that how they do it at the slickest of the bricks and mortar ad agencies? Speaking of ’slick’, those videos are way up there.
@Jerry West
Thanks for the response, Jerry. I’m not arguing that his info isn’t solid. I watched the videos. Like I said, technically they are awesome.
But the frenzy on their blog with people bashing Russell is what irks me and could have been seen coming a mile away. I just don’t see how you could have not predicted that.
(I mean I know the people who posted that on the blog are off base, but I haven’t seen the StomperNet folks address these attacks on their blog.)
As soon as I saw Andy’s email, I thought “Uh oh…” knowing exactly what was going to happen.
I have no doubt Leslie is the man when it comes to SEO and results. The teaching in those videos were great. But they knew what was going to happen and how people were going to misinterpret the promo for the video.
And I happen to conclude that that was the intention. If it wasn’t, they should come out and clarify. But they haven’t and they are just letting the negative buzz carry the videos.
Good marketing, but quite a bit disingenuous.
I also respect your position and trying to clarify things on their behalf. Nothing wrong with that. Your their friend and colleague.
I don’t think Leslie or Andy are bad guys. This issue aside, I’m sure their product will sell great and provide tons of value to their customers. Their technical teaching is solid.
I just hope they choose to clarify the issue themselves so the negative buzz gets stomped. (No pun intended).
Ferny,
As I have said, I consider a Russell a close friend and I say this with all due respect: Russell doesn’t need defending. He has a solid service. He knows it. I know it. His loyal customers know it.
You can’t conclude what the intention was unless you were actually there in the planning stages or if you’re a mind reader. You’re just drawing conclusions which aren’t right.
How do I know?
Because not only was I there in the planning stages, I was at Andy’s house this past weekend. I saw and heard everything. There wsa no “intent” of going after Russell or Bruce … and if I can quote Andy, “Why would I do that, they aren’t even my competitors?”
I’ll say it again … the intent was against bad information, not against any individual. Any “connecting of the dots” any other way is just pure speculation.
Thanks, Jerry.
You’re probably right. After all, you are closer to the source than any of us.
However, in choosing to launch a viral campaign using controversy — speculation, and gossip is what the marketer is banking on and if any of it goes off base, I think the marketer holds a responsibility to do what they can to keep it from getting negative towards the wrong people.
Things got negative on SN blog. They approved the comments without responding to them, which probably a big reason for the speculation.
You’ve taken it upon yourself to correct me, based on what you know and understand. I appreciate that and humbled.
StomperNet should have done the same and squashed this misinterpretation of their marketing message when it began. I don’t consider myself a total layman, but clearly I took things the wrong way… as many others did.
I think addressing this on their video comments, directly on their blog, will corroborate what you’ve told us and lay this to rest. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
And I know Russell doesn’t need defending. Like I said on my blog, he’s probably the most intelligent person I’ve ever met and every conversation with him makes my head hurt and checking balance grow… his value to the market place is mindblowing and is beyond the scope of any internet marketing SEO product.
Thanks for your replies.
-Ferny
P.S. Could you answer Raymond’s question regarding “LSI components” on your site? I’m not even sure how you would add “LSI” components. When Leslie referred to LSI as an “Advance SEO technique”, it made no sense since LSI is not a verb. You can’t “LSI” a website, which is what perplexed Russell & I when this was presented as “controversy”. Clarification on this would be appreciated.
I’ve only used LSI for market and keyword research, but ultimately I’m the one who picks the silos and article keywords, which will go in those silos — not LSI.
Jerry,
Loved Leslie’s videos. I remembered you when I saw the videos because I remember our conversations on LSI around 2003 – 2004. Interesting, this SEO world and how fast things become obsolete (or never were what we thought they were).
I laugh every time I see the pic of you in the spam can! You should have posted Leslie’s pic as a nun for complete disclosure on the matter.
Leslie Rohde is a man? I always thought it was a woman. I am shocked. Thanks for the clarification. I must send him an apology.
Good point. The content that you will build your blogs with now can bring you a lot of revenue when the economy bounces back.
Love the blog…people are missing out not using Articles more often!